Corps Traditionalists debate. I think dragging the kids into it is unfair, but what can you do? As for why people were sitting on their hands last night. I don't speak for everyone, but my opinion, and the opinions of people I've talked with all conclude that this year's Cadets show just isn't their best effort.
It's my least favorite Cadets show since I didn't experience any Cadet-hatred at Lincolnshire last night. I have seen them a couple of times live this season and then last night at the theater. I think there are a couple of components to negative reactions to the Cadets:. Not really being into the shows they're producing. They've gotten applause when I've seen them, yes, but not really the kind of applause that you get when people really dig your show.
You can tell the difference. The show is just leaving people not everyone, of course, people have different tastes flat. Semi-controversial issues in their shows. The fireman thing of and the baton twirler this year.
Fans say that they are pushing the envelope of creativity; non-fans say that these elements are distracting from the actual drum corps show. Neither is necessarily right; it's a matter of perspective. Right or wrong, those people naturally react negatively. While I don't agree with that particular poster's reasoning for this Anti-Cadets movement It is widely known that the better you are, the more people hate you.
Alot of people DO in fact hate the Blue Devils with their 11 rings! I don't have a favorite corps now, because I try to like every show and every corps. I think Hopkins's ideas on drum corps - for good or ill - have been attached to the Cadets. That polarizes a lot of people. And yes, I would know. The irony in this statement, is that I and many others that I've talked with who aren't turned on by the Cadets this year find the baton twirler the most entertaining part of the show.
But yes, controversy in the dictionary has a picture of the Cadets next to it. Share More sharing options Followers 0. Start new topic. Recommended Posts. Tommeee Posted August 6, Posted August 6, Correction — The lugnut comment was in reference to comment 11 from Toga, not the author. Sorry, I wrote that on the go from a mobile device, and can't edit it….
This rank business is a technicality of the rank system. It would be a very foolish cadet who started issuing orders to a senior sergeant. The rank of a cadet is for protocol issues alone such as where to stand in a receiving line or where to sit at a formal dinner.
Is the cadet attached or assigned a leadership position? Does the cadet have offiCial orders? Has the. Adept been officially assigned a position in the chain of command? Sorry- from a legal perspective there is a lot not discussed. If cadets, during this valuable leadership experience, are not given the chance to act as lieutenants and acting platoon leaders, then the whole CLTC program should be scrapped.
Your comment reeks of arrogance. NCOs are the backbone of the Army and run the Army day to day as opposed to commanding it. I say this as a retired officer. I pray that you are only a LT yourself. Of course there is a certain type of officer who fails to get it. For some reason a lot of angry major S3 types fall into this category. Oh please. Get off your high horse. Too many Cadets are treated like children by unprofessional NCOs who fail to realize that they are only alienating their future rather and or senior rather.
This author wrote an excellent piece. Appreciate your reply. Tired of all the "barracks lawyers" looking for some sort of designated, assigned, or "official" trappings of respect; absent the need to EARN that respect. When an NCO saluted me, I didn't just wave my hand at my cover to dismiss the salute, but "locked up" a little myself, acknowledged him with eye contact, and responded to any greeting.
When I was a 2LT, I always took the fact that Vietnam vets years older than I was were saluting me as an obligation to do my best to earn that salute. I have heard the saying "Stop being an arrogant officer? While being true you must also realize there is a need for Commissioned Officers as well as Non Commissioned Officers. It goes both ways and without Officers the Army would surely still fall apart. Each job is as important as the rest.
Officers and NCO's must realize alike that, they way you treat your future Officers NCO's case and the way you treat your subordinates Officers case will dictate how the military can and will be run in the future. Share mutual respect and work together is the name of the game. This information was not covered or taught. I can't speak for the Air Force, but the Navy certainly does.
Mids rank between W-1 and W-2 last time I had occasion to check. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers commissioned and warrant and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard , the commissioned corps of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service entitled to the salute.
Cadets are not commissioned nor do they possess a warrant. Per the order, they are not entitled to a salute. Salute were means of communication. Knights lifted their helmet to recognize they friends from enemy. It is a chain of command situation. I always say Semper Fi or Airborne when I return salute. I'm popping into the conversation late, but I completely agree not that you can argue with the regs.
Saluting a cadet completely invalidates the First Salute ceremony when they commission. They clearly outrank privates and are often assigned to leadership roles, but they aren't yet commissioned. I agree totally with enlisted not saluting a cadet. I spent 3 years as a MSG and never saluted a cadet. First, what an insult to a SNCO that instead of a 1SG with 10 plus years of experience leading soldiers in the absence of officers A Cadet would be next in succession.
How dare enlisted swine preside over a command position? Are we really saying an NCO could not do that? Secondly, just because of this outdated regulation considering no cadets are assigned to any deployed units requires no customs or courtesy obligation from enlisted soldiers or officers.
Seriously get over yourselves West Point you produce officers like any other university and they are no better or worse than anyone else. You earn everything in the Army. No commission? No salute. Thanks for your disgustingly pointless article. Ask any enlisted person and they will tell you that westpointers are arrogant and on need of a lot of training. A lot of people have been killed in combat because of the arrogance of westpointers. I respect them all but I just wonder what makes them "Elite" as you say?
Without these people, "How do you become "ELite"! First off the reg says regularly assigned personnel, which the Cadets are not.
No Salute should be required or rendered. You are absolutely wrong. Cadets are Officers period and should be rendered the appropriate courtesy. They're inchoate officers. When contracted you take the officer version of the oath as well. Cadets are never saluted. They aren't commissioned yet, and as pointed out above, they are considered equivalent to an E So you are incorrect when you say that Cadets outrank me.
Plus, it's not typically possible for a Cadet to be a " regularly assigned member" of any unit other than their school unit. By reg,they can't command or lead troops in the field. They aren't " in the pipeline" yet regarding training , experience or anything else yet. Technically, they aren't even qualified to fulfill a team leader slot. Actually, cadets do fill positions in the National Guard in the Simultaneous Membership Program and can be assigned to an O-2 slot for a period of years.
No, they won't deploy in that position, but they can and do attend annual training and NTC rotations and can act as Platoon Leader. You have to look at national guard and the reserves. Both have an option for Cadets to be apart of a simultaneous membership program.
I am a cadet and am military police and drill with them as well. AR lists command structure. That is why cadets dont go to parade rest while talking to NCOs. We only go to attention for officers. Dont take it as a sign of disrespect however. We are officers in training and when we get a chanve at a leadership role with the guidance of the NCOs it will ensure our success as officers. Most cadets understand and respect the NCOs within their unit.
I am acting PL of my platoon because we dont have a 2LT. I work with my leadership and learn from them and they help to shape me to become a good officer. CDT Vincent — High marks! You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders and as such know who and where you are able to receive the BEST mentorship and hands on experience. Cadet you are not a cadet when in you ng or reserve unit. You know this, you are assigned as whatever rank you have in the guard.
Only through a wriiten agreement from the pms tonthe guard commander are allowed to serve as acting LT's. This does not mean they are to enact on that rank as authority has been given to the person in command of them. Treat the Cadets with respect. You guys are all discussing how the Army does it.. Hands on training..
The Cadet wr had wrote all of us NCOs that trained him, some. Very nice endorsements. Now by chance he. We can feel confident we did our hob helping train a. Future leader in some position in our AF. A wise cadet will be mindful of their position. Something I wish I knew 50 years ago. I agree with you Sir. I am an honorably discharged Veteran of the active Army.
Served in the regulars from to , and from to I was an enlisted man and my rank at the time of my discharge in the late Summer of was Sergeant E5. I was a 13BGunner. Cadets should know that they must earn respect. In fact, based on my experience there are some West Pointers out there who never learned that. During my time in the regulars, I encountered a couple of West Point Grads who, in my opinion had amused contempt for enlisted personnel below the rank of E5.
One of these ignorant academy types was my battalion XO at Fort Ord. I respected his rank and expertise, but I detested him otherwise. I too am an honorably discharged Army Vet from an Army family. Now, that is a perfect resolution. I practice it for all things because that was my mom golden rule from childhood to yesterday dementia stole her from me. ROTC cadets do too. Still, there is no need to salute them. Officers, commissioned warrant officers, midshipmen, cadets, candidates are all affordedofficer status.
I think the part of the reg people have over looked is "the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier will assume command". Is a cadet a regularly assigned Army Soldier? I think not. The reason you would place cadets above enlisted in the rank chart is because they will be officers. Cadets are still learning and everyone in the unit should help mentor them and show the value of NCOs.
You missed it my good first sergeant so I dutifully call your attention to it. The definition is enhanced further by stating Soldiers "present for duty.
We need not be concerned about the proviso of either or as each applies to a Soldier under certain sanctions of discipline. Army command policy is clear the definition of terms. As for me, while a SNCO would in general be qualified to succeed a LT as platoon leader, any such succession would need to be limited to a short term basis. Yet I would not want a Year 1 WP cadet in charge of a company. It's virtually guaranteed there are at least one or two SNCO in a given company qualified to take a short term command of the company.
This would be wiser than placing a WP Year 1 cadet in charge of it. I say these factors because while the SNCO is focused on the lugnut and wheel base the Year 3 cadet is looking at the whole of the Humvee and as much of the landscape around it as he can scope out. In other words, each the SNCO and the cadet would be functioning appropriately.
The reason "cadets" are even mention in a gentlemans role is due to long ago medieval social customs. Cadets were sons of the upper class and were, due to social norms, afforded gentlemans status.
Example: In the U. Military a Warrant Officer W-2—W-5 are commissioned but are not gentlemen officers. Warrant Officers are formally addressed as "Mister. A knight officer is a commissioned officer and formally addressed as "SIR!
If married his spouse is always addressed a "Lady so and so. Almost, like her husband, an officer and a lady. Yet, still burdened with the unsocial characteristic of the enlisted class. Superior to a mere cunning, lazy enlisted man. Even if that enlisted man is the Sgt Maj of the Army. And yes the officer corps views your spouse as just a "wife. Only W1's, lacking a commission, are excepted from Art. Strangely enough, the Services expect the exact same behavior as "officers and gentlemen" and of course ladies from cadets and midshipmen, as they are also subject to Article , even lacking a commission, and some are dismissed from the Service every year for violating Article ….
Will that is incorrect. Ask any SJA. This should not turn into a them vs us type of debate. No one does this better than The Corps. My NCOs treated me with respect while I was a midshipman, but taught me what it meant.
It would be earned when I became the kind of Officer that he would be honored to serve as right hand to. I bet they could not even remember my name…. I highly doubt any West Point graduate will magically "see the light" after reading my imput on this discussion.
Somehow, the memo of shifting demographics of new Soldiers within the Infantry never reached West Point so there's a huge disconnect in reality. IQ averages are around for most Grunts and for those that don't track demographics, that's a huge jump from national averages.
In my experience we rarely see a decent new officer come out of West Point and it's really sad. We get people whose ideals are from left field and seem to think the Army is their play ground. We always give you a chance before we let you sink your career all on your own.
When you focus on things that scare you to death, always remember that those are your fears and we're not concerned with achieving the next rank or a nice review. Good Grunts care less for their next promotion beyond making sure our records are correct.
And you'll have to deal with the reality that there are better men out there and you may be in over your head but don't blame others for your shortcomings. We want to mold a new Officer to become a great leader we can always remember but there's a limit to what we're willing to do. And if for one second you think any Infantrymen will ever do something that violates our Constitutional form of government, you've made the worst assumption of your young life.
I see that USMA had a proud communist recently graduate, he might as well spit in my face and all other better warriors than myself before me. While in Iraq in we got a batch of 12 west pointer kids and more than half were momma's boys and short of a huge shift in their personality and ideals, they're too far gone in the head to be respectable leaders.
Why hasn't a single one of you been taught that humility, respect and honor flows both ways but in different fashions? The ones that get emotional about my post will reply as expected and miss the lesson altogether because they've been hard wired to respond that way. The Army is always evolving but power bitches have always been around, we just don't frag them as we used to.
His approach to us was simple and he asked lots of questions about how to best kill tanks and he found that each man has their own method of how they like to do things and tactics they like or dislike and for what reasons. As he worked in our platoon, we all quietly covered for him, especially when he got misoriented now and then analog land nav isn't simple, especially when mounted after a few months he was squared away and we taught him our secrets and he never betrayed us.
The regulations can only go so far in some jobs and situations in our Army and beyond that you need to be resourceful or have friends who are. I really wish I didn't have to speak this way about you kids but most of you did the West Point thing for power or prestige, both of which are useless to Infantrymen, we care less what college you went to, if you can't think on your feat when round crack by you then you get my men killed.
Then again for the same categories who were on rear detachment duties! I was going through a few operations connected to wound recovery. And get to know your PBO very well! Don't assume a damn thing, if a young NCO or Soldier tells you he "thinks" the vehicle is ready or has a full tank of fuel, hand him a long stick, send him back to the Motor Pool, have him put the stick into the fuel tank and bring back said stick with fuel on it, that way both of you will now KNOW that the vehicle is fueled.
Tell the NCO's that you don't want to seem like a dick that you're being so picky on things, you're just building trust so later you know who's good to go and what each of our strengths are and that goes for the young LT as well that's called humility and the men will understand because it's fair.
Most of us own our own firearms and body armor because we assume nothing but pray for the best. And if you think islam is a warm and fuzzy religion, you're way off! Always seek the minority view of any situation or story!
It's often hard to find but its often the real truth on a subject especially if it's being spoon fed to you in briefs and media. Be safe out there, use the "recon by fire" method if probing a road and drop to the ground when a frag is near you, the explosion goes up and away. And keep your mouth open and eyes covered with your hands when it or any other explosion goes off near you.
I'm laughing as I remember when our sniper team took out 16 combatants at one road intersection in Falujah, Iraqi's have an average IQ of 70 so they aren't the brightest candle on the cake, lol. Then we'd mow the guy down with an M4. Speed is your friend in a convoy, never drive slower than the rest of the civilian traffic, that way when a bad guy is trying to catch up to your convoy, he sticks out big time and the rear vehicle can easily engage him.
In we never went slower than 55, usually 60 MPH and we never lost anyone. That one NCO who doesn't give a crap about you is the one you should be talking to. Hey brother. Word of advice, if you want to write an op-Ed then you should submit it for publication. Nobody reads your comments past the first four lines. Everybody read it.
Long story short: Years of hands-on experience trumps reading an instruction manual, This applies in every situation and every single time. Coming straight out of a college any college prepares you for exactly nothing. What comes after is when the real learning begins. Pro-Tip: Don't make a blog post, offer a comment section, then expect not to be schooled by your elders, especially when taking a condescending tone. Life Hope this was brief enough for you or TL:DR?
Your attitude will get you relegated to a Quonset hut in BFE. A very interesting thread. A little ancient cadet history for anyone interested. I was an Air Force Aviation Cadet during the late 's. Requirements for a USAF Aviation Cadet at the time were two years of college and passing scores on a series of IQ and skills tests such as mathematics, logic, and spatial relations. While the other sources trained and commissioned officers for all USAF career fields, the Aviation Cadet Corps produced only pilots and navigators.
We were enlisted in the Air Force for a two year enlistment. Aviation Cadet training was 15 months. The two year enlistment term allowed for cadets who had to temporarily halt training because of illness or injury.
The first three months were preflight training at Lackland AFB where we were taught basic military skills such as customs and courtesies, UCMJ, drill, Air Force history, parachute training, confidence course, and firearms training.
0コメント